So Very Wrong

[plumtreeblossom]

Every single dating-strategies-for-men website or column I've ever read has been chock full of advice that would send this woman screaming for the hills or slamming doors in faces. I don't know who is writing them, but they sure don't know how real women respond to manipulative behavior and just plain rudeness.

I just took an online dating test for men, and I answered exactly how I, as a woman, would want a man to behave/act in each scenario. I failed the test! The answer key explained why.

Don't call/e-mail her for a week after the first date. Don't accept an e-mail address instead of a home phone number. If she won't kiss you on the first date, dump her; she's not interested. Use a homely woman to attract a gorgeous woman.

I am willing to wager money that no lesbian dating book suggests these things.

Every one of these would be grounds for dismissal in the very early stages of dating with me, with very few exceptions (if you get hit by a bus after our date, you don't have to e-mail me within a week of our date). I have to wonder what these date-flailing men who spend hundreds of dollars on books and "systems" to get more hawt babez think when some bitch like me says NO to a 2nd date after being told "You can reach the salt just fine yourself." In some cases I see multiple levels of material that the men have to continue buying to ensure success, but to sell it, the company has to ensure early failure. I don't see this bad behavior much in the poly community, but someone in the mono world is gettin' scammed.

I should get a panel of women together and write a real dating advice book for men. Advice directly from the intended target, not some aging Love Doctor who's arbitrarily (and profitably) decided that women put out for men (or women) who treat them like crap. I know otherwise. ;-)

(Working title: You Want A Date? You Can't Handle A Date!)

Heh, between me and my girls with dating experience, we probably have a collective 300 years of experience and advice to give.

I can remember personals ads dates where I was quite sure one of those strategic systems was being used on me. I wonder if they thought "WTF, I paid $200 for that set of dating tapes" while watching my backside exiting Starbucks.

Comments

[mangosteen]

So what do you think of books like The Rules?

[plumtreeblossom.livejournal.com]

The Rules must be burned in mountainous piles, and the ashes pelted with stones. It is manipulative, dehumanizing for both parties, and the fastest way to a future messy divorce.

[androidqueen.livejournal.com]

i'd never read the rules, so i read the excerpt. wow, there are a lot of exclamation points. it reads like a chain letter -- do this and your true love will find you and marry you and you'll be happy forever!

[androidqueen.livejournal.com]

heh, i would *love* to help you out with this, if you want the perspective of a geeky, career-driven girl. :)

[plumtreeblossom.livejournal.com]

If I do it, I'll be in touch!

[trowa-barton.livejournal.com]

I recommend watching "Can't Get a Date" on VH1.

[plumtreeblossom.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen it. Is it a reality show?

[joyeous.livejournal.com]

Ugh! Those italiced rules you listed are horrible! I would probably think the person wasn't interested if they didn't call for a week. I would think the person either was a stalker, telemarketer, or just a dumbass who didn't know how to use email if they insisted on getting my number. I would think they were only interested in sex to begin with, if they dumped me if I didn't kiss them on the first date. And WTF for that last one??? Seriously!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_mattt/]

Hello Mare. I'm joyeous's friend. We met at the puppet show thing. I couldn't help but notice this thread.

As a heterosexual man, those rules are bunk. Plain and simple. You can't apply hard and fast rules to a diverse population, even amongst heterosexual women.

Think about it: if those magazines actaully gave good advice, men would get married, their wives would cancel their subscription, and they'd go out of business. I jest, but I've often wondered if it is in their best interest to give bad advice.

The last example, however, is believed to be true by many men. Many men (and maybe I am included?) believe that a woman's sense of jealousy can be subconsciously triggered, thereby providing a (perhaps false) elevated level of interest. Dating is an ugly business.

[plumtreeblossom.livejournal.com]

Hi there!

That last one has been used on me, when I was "the homely one." And ironically, it's advice women are given, too! As in, date an ugly guy, and it will give hot guys the confidence to approach you and "steal" you. It sick business.

I'm proof that nice guys do get girls. I'm dating the nicest guy ever in the history of the world. He's considerate, kind, caring, non-possessive, and I put out like a monkeywoman for him. Many flies can be caught with honey. :-)

[joyeous.livejournal.com]

Stop trying to steal my friends.

j/k :-P

[mindflankr.livejournal.com]

I'm on board with your book deal......I've been going on a lot of dates recently, and I have to say, I am NOT impressed at what some of these men think is proper dating etiquette. In fact, I've been thinking about becoming a 'dating consultant' for men who are serious about finding a partner. But then I wonder.....isn't it better to just be who you are and if you fit with someone, you just fit?

[lillibet.livejournal.com]

But then I wonder.....isn't it better to just be who you are and if you fit with someone, you just fit?

Well, yes, of course. But when you're repeatedly not getting anywhere with people who interest you, or newly returned to dating after a long-term relationship, it's easy to want some guidelines to help you.

[jimmystagger.livejournal.com]

The Rules are a bigger joke than Mission Accomplished.

I still can't get a date though. Weird. Anyway.

Oh and hey mindflankr I think it was you who a long time ago asked me how to put in YouTube vids on your LJ- you just cut and paste the code YouTube gives you off to the right under the description of the vid.

*Returning you to your regularly scheduled Mare blog*

[http://users.livejournal.com/urban_faerie_/]

This entry makes me think of the movie Swingers where they talk about, "Not calling their babies for 6 days" after a date. There is just so much male propaganda saying you can't look like you like a girl and so much female propaganda saying if you call you'll look like a desperate relationship hungry harpy.

It's things like this that remind me that so many people still believe this stuff. Myself, I think 2-3 days is polite. I'm not interested in being contacted a week or two later buy a guy who's pretending I'm an afterthought when hes' really been planning to call me all week. I wouldn't even run screaming if the *right* guy called me the day after a really great date.

Dating is so nerve racking, I wish both sexes would just cut the crap and deal straight. We all go through hell playing mind games and trying ot manipulate each other or predict the furure when all we all really want is a little affection. I think we need to call a truce in the dating war!

[library-sexy.livejournal.com]

So my co-worker's sister ordered some books to have her Mother bring back to her (she lives out of the country) and didn't look at the dates of print (or I hope she missed it)

The Intelligent Woman's Guide to Dating & Mating Dr. Albert Ellis copyright 1979
The Intelligent Woman's Guide to Man-Hunting Dr. Albert Ellis copyright 1963
How to Raise an Emotionally Healthy Happy Child Dr. Albert Ellis copyright 1966

From the bits and pieces I read I would not recommend his work, unless you are looking for a good laugh.

Dating is extremely different in other countries. I have a few co-workers who group up outside the US and it is interesting to hear their stories of what is "normal" for women where they group up and who they are with professional carriers and how they fit in.

[lillibet.livejournal.com]

Count me in!

[noire.livejournal.com]

I'm in! And having been the "homely one" in that bit more than once I can say that it's the most evil kind of thing. Us homely girls sometimes have something to offer, and it's just nasty to be used that way.

[surrealestate.livejournal.com]

Count me in as well!

But I'm having trouble grasping either of you as the "homely one" in any context. WTF?

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

The thing is -- those rules are designed to attract and keep a specific type of woman -- one that might be termed "doormat sex toy."

See, if you use those rules, and you DO end up with a woman, you can be guaranteed that, until she wises up and kicks your fat, lazy ass out, you'll be able to mooch off of her, and make her get you beer and give you blowjobs.

Now, obviously, those rules don't actually work to attract women with, y'know, personalities and brains and goals and ambitions and interests and hobbies and things like that, but the point of them is specifcially to weed out that kind of person. You use those rules, and the woman you get will be your pathetic brainless doormat slave!

[lilbjorn.livejournal.com]

Oooooooh, yes. That's exactly right.

[docorion.livejournal.com]

Hm. Maybe this is what I've been doing wrong all these years. If I'm "not that into you", I'll tell you so at the end of the date. "Y'know, it's been fun, you're a nice person, thanks for the date, I won't be calling." (Perhaps not that last). If I *am* interested, I will generally call you the next day or so, just to say hi, how are you, when can I see you again (I admit calling the very next day always seems like I'm desperate).

I'm not smart enough to play a 'homely' woman against a good looking one (and I'm with pheromone; how do either you or n0ire qualify as 'homely' in any context?) And sionnagh is probably still telling the story of the end of our first date-I shook her hand. Didn't want to seem forward, y'know.

Many men are terminally shy about initiating dating/sexual contact, though. (DAMHIKT). Advice of the type you are contemplating will be entirely welcome to those men, as I suspect it is of the form "Be yourself, be honest, and be prepared for the fact that some women won't be interested in you, *and that's OK*" As best as I can tell, one of the central tenets of modern heterosexual male dating is that if you cannot attract *every woman*, you can't attract *any woman*. Which is crap on its face, but no one ever says it that baldly.

[plumtreeblossom.livejournal.com]

I will generally call you the next day or so, just to say hi, how are you, when can I see you again

Yes indeedy, and it's a delight to get that call when I'm into someone (usually followed by a girls-only filtered LJ post of "HE CALLLLLLED!!)

Even better than "when can I see you again" would be "I'm interested in seeing _______ movie/show/museum sometime soon. Would you like to join me?" It shows you're able to entertain her, and that she wouldn't be stuck planning every date if she dated you. I probably can't speak for every woman on this, but I love it when someone suggests an idea for a date. If it's not my cup of tea, I might suggest something different, but they get *major* points for being interested in doing some of the date planning.

Re: 47 first dates

[plumtreeblossom.livejournal.com]

he could direct chi with his penis

Heeeeeeehehehehehee! I had one tell me he could "cure" me with his penis. The same one who said "Don't say you're not attracted to me. You just don't know you're attracted to me."

Does that blog still exist? I want to read it!!

[ironpoet.livejournal.com]

I should get a panel of women together and write a real dating advice book for men.

Not that this is a bad idea, but does dating advice really have to be gender specific? I'd be more interested in a book about how men and women (in whatever combination) should take equal roles in the dating process!

[desireearmfeldt]

I'd like to see a book that talked to both genders at once. (And assumed that people of both genders were sane, intelligent, reasonable people who were both willing and able to take equal roles in the dating process.)

I think the advice does kind of have to be gender-specific, because the genders still do have a lot of gender-specific baggage and assumptions that have been imposed on them and whatnot and do tend to think of the other gender as Mysterious. (I assume those who date their own gender don't have so much of that latter problem. :) )

Note that I know basically nothing about dating, in the going-on-dates-with-someone-you-don't-know-well sense, because I have done this precisely once, in high school (with a boy I met taking the achievement tests). :) But it's an interesting topic for lots of reasons.

(I'm mostly reading this thread going "wow, not only are there really people like that out there, but people I know have actually met them..." Somewhat sheltered, me.)

[dietrich.livejournal.com]

I WILL HELP YOU WRITE THIS BOOK PLEASE KTHXBYE.

Seriously, let's do it!!